Language and rank name Warder

I was wondering where this name Warder came from, and what was the inspiration behind it to name tribal chieftains that way.

About the language, i'm not a fan of making sentences using both orcish and english, unless only nouns and/or adjectives are orcish(the rest being english). Other than that, a full sentence in orcish or english makes sense. But i've always hate to see orcs say stuff like "Lat dum!". It's even worst when 'Lat' is being used as 'Your', followed by english. The irony is that i'm pretty sure it was me who first started using 'Lat' and it created this zombie apocalypse :D

And now I see you've added a replacement for 'Me', so I can already see alot of pain for my eyes :P but my main worries is the typical nazi reactions i'd get from other orcs if I don't talk the same way. So my question is, would it be playable for me if my orc talks my way? Also not a fan of the suffix 'r thing. It's lazy, ugly and dumb :P

Anyway, I just checked and I lost my old file I kept about the orc language I improved. 15 years ago I was working heavily to improve the language, almost every orc word we got that isn't from Tolkien and the first basic 10 or so words(Yub nub, etc) was created by me. It came quite easily to me back then, not sure if I still got it, but we'll see. I had a huge list of nouns, verbs and adj on it. I have a quick suggestion though(which actually comes from Warcraft but I always loved it);

Acknowledgment - Dabu

And we need one for 'Shield'. I'm working something in my head around 'Ogba'. Will work on this word this week :D

Oh yea and I remember that I changed 'Gug'ye' to 'Gugbu' at the end of my UO career on my list, but it didn't become official nor used. I personally don't find 'ye' as a proper orcish suffix at all. It's probably our worst word. Of course, being one of the first words used, it's a tough nut to break. But hey, starting over on a new shard is a good time for change. Up to you.

There are several lists of orcish words that fans across the world have made up using what little they could from Tolkien: http://circlesofpower.byethost22.com/blackspeech/

I personally refer to the Red Hand Orcs Wordlist http://circlesofpower.byethost22.com...owordlist.html almost exclusively because I like it the most.

You'll find that among Bloodclan orcs, no one spells the same word the same way. I've seen "Me" spelled me, mi, meeb, and gur. Gur is a new suggestion and hasn't caught on yet. I've tried to make the language more uniform, but people can't be forced, and since orcs aren't the most educated creatures, I don't see a reason to be too strict about it anyway. Using your example, I would say "Lat am skah hed" instead of "Lat dum" but again, I've seen everything under the sun.

You'll also find that many members have a distaste for the word Dabu. I think perhaps because it sounds so Warcraftish, and many of us lean away from that type of Orcish when possible. That being said, no one cares whether you say Dabu or not, we've always just used Rulg instead.

As for Ward'r, it has been around since we made changes to our rank system some 6 or so years ago. I believe it basically means Keeper (or Warder) of the Tribe. I for one have made an effort to use more Orcish sounding words for our ranks, like Kodra, Maugoth, and Pizdur, since Grunt and Warder are English words after all. However, having English words can help non-orc players understand who is what rank a bit better, so that is why we've opted to keep the rank names.

The word for shield that I've heard used most is Blokr, but I really like your Ogba suggestion. I also like your suggestion of Gugbu for goodbye.

My opinion is that we should use as much black speech as possible, and shy away from butchered English. The problem is that the longer your wordlist, the steeper the learning curve for new recruits. We have several members that speak English as a second language, which makes things even more challenging. Only the diehard orcs will dedicate time to learning a long list of Orcish words. This is why we have a short list of required standard words and the sky is the limit with optional words.

So I say use whatever words you like, but if you want to communicate clearly with fellow members, then keep in mind the words on this page: http://bloodclanorks.bloodclan.org/wiki/Language

Dabu is horrible so is greebas and any other WoW words. you can use them, But I will mock you :P
Also I believe Ogba is a shadowclan thing, part of their old belief structure. Ogba meant Brutality and is generally associated with Womprs.

Also as burz said our language is ment to encourage new players to join and learn them easily. having to many hard core nerd words make it difficult for everyone to pick it up quickly.

I suppose I might hate Dabu also if I would have played WoW more. 'Gruk' can be used for acknowledgment, as it means 'Understanding'. 'Rulg' means thanking.

How about 'Chieftain' or 'Boss' instead of 'Warder'?

Yea it came to my mind yesterday that 'ogba' sounded as something associated to bloodlines, but we don't use them anyway.
A shield needs to sound simple and tough. 'Og' might even do it, but 'Ogba' is more nounish.

We did use Boss in the past but it was just really unorcish being a straight english word. Chieftain wouldn't work cause of the same problem, and the Ward'r rank not actually being a chieftain role. Ward'r's role is to keep charge of the Grunts and make sure they fulfill their roles. I actually rather like the title Ward'r, because it is somthing as a clan we made ourselves. We have been looking to change the Warboss title to something better though.

I suggested to Burz that we change Me/Meeb to Gur (Svartiska) cause I felt it rather lazy that we can't say I but we just use Me instead. Although orcs should always make a habit of refering to themselves by their own names.

Hey Varg. We use Gruk. I try and pick up all I can from the other Orc guilds that I have encountered. If I write stories I will sometimes refer to the Red Hand website Burz posted, I am not strict with the black speech but I use it on occasion, especially if I cannot think of a way to butcher the English language into my own brand of Orcish. You will find that our language is simplified and really it helps the new Orcs find their way and immerse themselves into RP quickly without a steep learning curve. It also in my opinion makes insulting humans much more effective as they can understand that they are getting trash talked to. Also, it is quite universal, as I can go to any Orc clan and they can understand me and I them. I have made Orcs with Shadowclan and Boulderfist and I have found that our language mirrors Shadowclan for the most part.

Oh, and the way I speak I also attribute it to my Orcs homeland. Much like RL northerners and southerners use their own brand of jargon and accent. I have a Fire Island accent lol. It adds to my RP story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aya'Stigi

I have a Fire Island accent lol. It adds to my RP story.

Hahaha interesting ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnoth

We did use Boss in the past but it was just really unorcish being a straight english word. Chieftain wouldn't work cause of the same problem

Well, 'Chieft'n' would be just as cheap and english as 'Ward'r' is. You don't make it orcish by just writing english differently. Like I said before, the 'r suffix is lame, lazy, dumb and hypocrite.
At least words like Chieftain, Chief, Boss, etc, are way more orcish(although I don't like 'boss' either), for a high-position rank, than a name associated with defense. Rank names being english were never a problem, since it's not confusing for new members and people we encounter. Grunt and Gruntee being the core rank names ARE english. And they sound orcish and proper.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnoth

Ward'r rank not actually being a chieftain role. Ward'r's role is to keep charge of the Grunts and make sure they fulfill their roles.

Sounds very chieftain to me. Tribal leaders(in real life) are mainly about that.
Warboss could be changed to Warchief or Warlord(yea I know lord isn't very orcish but he leads all tribes in war... so he's kind of a lord).
I'm pretty sure I had a word for 'war' back then, damn it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnoth

Although orcs should always make a habit of refering to themselves by their own names.

Agreed.

Personally so far i'd see Warder rank named Chief instead, and Warboss rank named as Warchief.

Chiefs lead the clan on a daily basis, but the Warchief leads them in war. And when the Warchief isn't there, it's up to a Chief to do that. The 2 names fit together in a logical and simple way, that also makes it clear that Warchief is above Chief, while also making it clear that the word 'Chief' in a rank makes it an important orc. But war being something of importance in orc culture, it is a prefix of similar importance to nobility for a rank name, in the minds of orcs.

Rather than having 2 completely different names like Nob - Warboss, Warder - Warboss or whatever else. From experience it has always been confusing for new members and our visitors to figure out who's in charge, even with ranks floating above our heads. And I think it would just look better, simplier and our structure would look more solid. Just like Gruntee - Grunt is simple and solid.

We haven't even had a warboss in years. If anything, I think we may change the title to Wargoth (goth means lord).

I don't mean to be rude, but it takes some time to change words and names. All suggestions are welcome and they will be taken into consideration as the clan tries them out and sees what sticks and what doesn't. Our language is a part of our group culture that has both evolved somewhat and solidified over 10 years.

Chief is just incredibly generic though. Also our Warboss works differently, they only have absolute power during raids and fort defence, the rest of the time they don't outrank Ward'r or Grunt, unless it's a Ward'r that becomes Warboss, then they'll still outrank a Grunt. We've had some bad experiences with one orc outranking everyone and being utter tyrants so it won't really be something to be changed.

I've never noticed recruits having trouble understanding our current ranks. It's pretty clear what the Grunts are and what the Ward'rs are. Dress code further helps to distinguish them.

We'll have a Warboss on IPY3, we were going to hold a clomp on UOF but our activity dropped badly.

Problem with 'Wargoth' is that it's a word mixed with both languages, and 'goth' is also english. It's english definition is really not orcish, making us look silly.

Thats fine? I don't see how that is silly, Goth in orcish and Goth in english mean two different things. Orcs take words and debase them and twist them to fit their own uses. Your first post detailing how you dislike and think its our use of mixed blackspeech/english is really unfounded in rp lore too. Blackspeech was only spoken in full by high ranking people in Sauron's camp, most would just use it brokenly. This wikipedia excerpt details it better than I:

The Orcs had no language of their own, merely a pidgin of many various languages. However, individual tribes developed dialects that differed so widely that Westron, often with a crude accent, was used as a common language. A few words of the Black Speech are common among Orcs: ghâsh ("fire"), sharkû ("old man", leading to Saruman's nickname "Sharkey"), snaga ("slave"), and Uruk ("orc"). Another Orkish word is tark ("Man of Gondor") from Westron and ultimately Quenya tarkil.

When Sauron returned to power in Mordor in the Third Age, Black Speech was used by the captains of his armies and by his servants in Barad-dûr.

So my biggest gripe with your suggestions of Chief or Boss is that these are more widely used in everyday english than Warder, and are extremely generic sounding and invoke images of Native Americans/Police/Mobsters and other things.

Can we make a Fat Hed rank? I want that one!!! Seriously, I like Wargoth, it is fun sounds nice. Chieftain I like as well. I have no issue with Warder, however.

There are two sides to rank arguments: More orchish and better understood. Obviously, there are those who want more and more tolkien-esque words involved and those that want it to be easier to grasp what's happening.

In Ward'rs case and the rank structure as whole, it was decided that shorter form, uncommonly used english and easily understood won out. I personally enjoy our completely non-english words in the language but there is a line. That line is the actual learning of a full on new language and as we get closer to it, I feel like we lose interest from potential recruits. The argument that those potential recruits aren't worth our time anyways could be made, but that's another topic.

Finally, back when this was all happening it was because we needed changes to the rank structure in general. We had too many grunts and Boss/Warboss's were too few. We split Boss power into Ward'r/See'r and things went forward. The clan dwindled, so we retired See'r and here we are today.